It’s been quite a while since I’ve posted anything here. But after talking to a few people online I was able to overcome my 24p editing challenges and here is how:
24fps work flow with SDX900
Audio Video Settings
Sequence Preset: DV NTSC 48kHz Anamorphic (Custom 23.98)
Capture Preset: DV NTSC 48kHz Anamorphic
Device Control: Non-Controllable Device
Capture Steps:
Press play on Camera .
Select “Capture Now”.
Monitor audio with headphones (RCA out of Laird Blue Flame Pro LTM-5500).
Press “Esc” when video finishes.
Using JES Deinterlacer - Inverse Telecine:
INPUT:
Click “Choose” and choose movie file to be inverse telecined.
PROJECT:
Select “Inverse telecine” from the drop down menu.
Finished Product: Community musical theatre performance on DVD (29.98).
Attempting to multicam edit footage that was shot with the Panasonic AJ-SDX900P and the Sony V1U. Both cams shot in DV (standard play), 16:9, 24p (2:3 pulldown).
Source footage:
Panasonic AJ-SDX900P; DVCPRO25; 24p; 16×9
Sony V1U; DV sp; 24p; 16×9
JVC-HD100; DV sp; 24p; 16×9 (not officially part of this project)
Sony HVR-MRC1 (flash disk); DV sp; 24p; 16×9, (not officially part of this project)
Computer Specs:
Mac Mini
Mac OS X version 10.4.11
1.42 Ghz PowerPC G4 Processor
1 GB DDR SDRAM of Memory
Final Cut Pro Studio ver. 5.0.4
Quicktime Pro ver. 7.3.1
How each camera is feeding the computer the footage
Panasonic AJ-SDX900P: BNC Video out from the camera to BNC CV in to a Blue Flame Pro LTM 5500 (manufactured by Laird). This is an uncontrollable device. Therefore, Final Cut Pro is unable to read the timecode on the original source footage.
Sony V1U & JVC-HD100: The DV tape stock from the V1U has been inserted in to a Canon Elura 65 and connected to my Mac Mini via Firewire. I have also inserted the footage into a new Sony Z7U with the same results.
Problem
While multicam editing the 24fps footage I had noticed that some frames would freeze (duplicated) on one camera as the other camera when on to the next frame. As I continued through the footage I noticed the opposing camera footage was also doing the same thing.
Questions to be answered (outcome)
Is the freeze frame/duplicated frame to be expected when capturing in 480i/24fps?
Is the freeze frame/duplicated frame what gives that 24 fps look?
Is the same true when shooting in HD 24p?
Do I need to deinterlace the 24fps footage?
Is it still a good/bad idea to multicam 24fps?
How can I hook up an broadcast calibrated monitor to my mac mini so I can see more then just a preview of the footage I’m editing?
Have I gone completely mad?!?!?
Will this blog post become my first book?
Source Footage (as viewed with a Sony broadcast 19 inch monitor (8.11.08)
V1U - As I toggle frame by frame I count 1, 2, 3, 4, freeze, 1, 2, 3, 4, freeze.
DVCPRO50 - Because the DVCPRO is an uncontrollable device and does not have a slow motion playback mode I am unable to test for the freeze frames.
This test proves that I’m not crazy. I even had my roommate watch the monitor with me and he agreed that there are defiantly frozen/duplicated frames on the V1U source footage.
CAPTURE ATTEMPT SETTINGS AND RESULTS
23.98 PULLDOWN KEPT:
DVCPRO50, no physically skipped frames but frames noticeably freezing in multicam view (when I go to single view on the same frame you can see Venetian Blind Effect on the performers moving on stage)
V1U, physically skips frames (as you shuttle one frame at a time numbers are missing)
23.98 PULLDOWN REMOVED:
DVCPRO50, same as above.
V1U, same as above and in addition the audio did not sync up
Using the Apple Intermediate codec:
V1U, frames skipped 5, 15 & 25 in a 23.98 frame rate. Still seeing freeze frames. 1, 2, 3, F, 1, 2, 3, F
Using the Prores 422 codec:
V1U, No skipped frames. Time code counting up to 29 frames in 23.98. Still seeing freeze frames. 1, 2, 3, F, 1, 2, 3, F
24fps PULLDOWN KEPT:
DVCPRO50, frames noticeably freezing in multicam view (when I go to single view on the same frame you can see interlaced fields on the performers moving on stage)
V1U, audio does not sync
24fps PULLDOWN REMOVED:
*DVCPRO, nothing seems to be freezing as like above (also not freezing in multicam view) not freezing using JES Deinterlacer either
V1U, frames noticeably freezing in multicam view (when I go to single view on the same frame you can see Venetian Blind Effect on the performers moving on stage)
29.98
V1U, As I walk frame by frame you can see the 4th frame freezes
DVCPRO50, As I walk frame by frame you can see the 4th frame freezes
JVC-HD100u, As I walk frame by frame you can see the 4th frame freezes
24fps - flash card to computer direct
Sony HVR-MRC1 (flash disk), Captured as an AVI file and viewed using Quicktime Pro; you see every fourth frame freeze
Vocabulary: (may or may not have a direct correlation to the main subject at hand but maybe be useful while exploring the video forums of the internet)
After a conversation with Sony’s telephone tech support, here’s what I have so far:
You can record 24 progressive frames per second (V1U and the Z7U) in standard DV mode and in HDV mode. The Z7U is the only camera that will shoot 24 progressive frames natively in HDV 24p.
In 99.9% of the time you will want to capture 24fps footage at 23.98 in FCP. This allows the footage to be more flexible. (if you would like to use the footage in a 29.98 timeline and other such reasons I can’t quite remember). I guess we are so lazy that we can’t actually say 23.98 when it is 23.98 because it doesn’t roll off the tongue as easily as 24p. Very frustrating indeed.
The freeze frames are a natural occurrence when dealing with 23.98fps in standard DV or HDV (with the exception of the Sony Z7U. This is when the advanced pulldown must be removed in FCP.
According to Sony’s tech support, when the pulldown is removed the footage is already deinterlaced and no further deinterlacing is needed.
Sony tech support also alluded to using specific codecs to use when capturing to remove the pulldown as well (still fuzzy on this one)
Sony tech support also alluded to the differences between 24 and 24A progressive settings. Saying where the pulldown can be removed with one and not the other. (very fuzzy on this one)
Calling sony happened to be the best way to get answers so far. I don’t regret spending the time trying to figure it out myself. As you can see from above I was able to remove the pulldown for the DVCPRO50 but only when captured at 24fps not 23.98.
Second day with Sony tech support:
Today’s Sony tech thought that my little Canon Elura couldn’t understand DV footage captured in 24p. Well, I did as they recommended. I played back the V1U footage on my brand new Z7U (loving it so far) and it played back just the same as the Canon. 1, 2, 3, 4, freeze, 1, 2, 3, 4, freeze. I’m also being mindful of the timecode on the cameras LCD and it is moving frame by frame. I suppose maybe I shouldn’t consider it a freeze frame. Perhaps I should refer to it as a duplicate frame. (8.12.08)
The Ultimate Quagmire:
When I check my work after speaking with Sony tech support, what was explained to me does not seem to be true based upon my previous efforts. I captured in 23.98 with the pulldown removed and I had no luck. I will double check my work and call Sony back again. FUN!
I hope to have this all figured out by the time my head hits the pillow tomorrow night (8.13.08).
The “stuff” that I’m beginning to understand:
As I continue to dig through internet forums, read online articles and speak with video professionals, I’m beginning to understand a few things about this 24p workflow.
When recording in 24p (2:3 pulldown) the duplicated frames are used because the camera is constantly recording 60 fields per second. If you divide 60 by 24 you get 2.5. Since the camera is not capable of half (.5) fields so it alternates between 2 and 3 fields is created (hence the 2:3 pulldown).
24p advanced mode was created so that NLE’s could easily seek out the pulldown and remove it when capturing the video from the source footage. (I have yet to try this mode myself but will soon do so)
Thus 24p (2:3) is preferably to be used when transferring video to film (and vice versa) and 24pa (2:3:3:2) is best to be used when working with digital NLE’s out sourced to DVD. 24pa footage also does not have to be compressed when the pulldown is removed; so the original footage (look/quality) is sustained, unlike 24p (2:3).
Unfortunately for me, the source footage that I am working with is 24p (2:3). And as of (8.12.08) I have yet to capture/compress it correctly. But with this knowledge I think I’ll be able to communicate my issues intelligently with Sony tech support tomorrow morning ;).
We are in this digital war together
I will leave this blog post up for anyone who needs the help. Honestly I don’t know why Sony and other venders wait till after the camera is released to get out information concerning the workflow for their pro products. I have been through the manual and the information I have shared with you thus far is not stated anywhere. When I told Sony tech support I was willing to do the work of getting this stuff written down, they said that they will have information available in the next few months concerning the workflow. Till then Sony should expect plenty of phone calls from those who expect the most out of their (expensive) prosumer cameras.
If this blog post has been helpful to you or if you having any additional information you would like to share please leave a comment. As much as we like to take pride and ownership for our work, filmmakers, we are in this together.
The floor shakes beneath this lonesome man tonight.
His head begins to nod off but he knows what might happen to him if he falls asleep. He doesn’t belong on this train.He’s on the run. He ain’t proud of what he done but what’s done is done.
That afternoon, after a long days work, Rick stops at the old saloon to get a drink. Rick’s not a drinkin man but the entire territory has been in a drought for weeks without a single drop of rain. Rick walks in and nods his dusty hat to some strangers who had noticed his entrance and sits down at the bar.
“What’ll it be Rick?”
“Oh, Gimme somethin wet.”
“I could escort you out to the horse trough if you’d like?”
“Those torrid horse troughs don’t have enough drink in them to satisfy the horses. Fix me a cold glass of whiskey.”
The bartender pours the glass of the refreshment and slides if over to Rick.
“You know Sally was lookin for ya earlier?”
“Ya, what for?”
“She didn’t say, must have been important though. You know she never comes in here.”
Rick mumbles a bit, finishes the drink and leaves the saloon. Sally’s one of the few girls in town in which all the men, young and old, tend to stare at. She just happens to be living with Rick.
Very recently my great aunt has lost the ability to care for herself. She doesn’t have a life threatening disease. Though, the aging process is very unforgiving and she will be living in a nursing home. Her new home is very nice. Her bedroom is not as big as the bedroom in her house and she has her own bathroom.
My grandparents called me to pick up my aunt’s bed, television and other miscellaneous things from her house to the nursing home. I don’t ever remember visiting her house in the past. When I walked into her home where she had spent most of her life, the smell was familiar. It smelled much like my grandparent’s house when they lived in the city. When I walked in and had a chance to look around I had the feeling I was thrown back in to the 1960s or 70s. The furniture, the light fixtures and the wallpaper must not have been changed since then.
As I began to look around inside, I noticed there were little piles of stuff everywhere. It wasn’t so much a mess but little organized piles of things. I began to wonder…
What are these things for?
Did my aunt use these items so much that they had to be organized in piles about the room(s)?
Do I have these little piles in my home or life?
Why do we feel the need to hang onto things when in the end they will be thrown away with the rest of the trash?
I know I have these little organized piles where I live and where I work. Sometimes I don’t touch these piles for years but yet they sit there. Important documents that may move from here to there but never thrown away.
Interestingly enough, my aunt’s new space is just a bedroom. Her house has a full basement, a huge living room, two bedrooms and a kitchen. Where will all those things go? Has she thought of all the things she has kept through the years that will now be discarded like junk mail?
Probably.
One weird feeling hit me as I moved my aunt’s things in her new room as I was going up the elevator. In the elevator there was a bulletin board of all the birthday’s and activities for the month to come. It seems like my aunt moved into a college dorm; a fun little community of people the same age. As college is just another chapter in a young adult’s life, so is the reality of losing your home and living in a small room surrounded by many other occupied rooms.
As dawn breathes life into the beginning of a new day, I roll out of bed just like the day before. I take a shower, get dressed and drink of cup of juice. I walk outside to fetch my bicycle and I sense that the air feels a bit still from the night before. I wander on over to the garage and since my parents haven’t installed the new garage opener yet, I’m stuck pushing up the garage door manually all by myself. The door is large and had been built with thick wood and the wheels seem to squeak as I grunt and slowly raise the door to find my bicycle in the back of garage. I walk the bike out and close the garage door behind me.
I am on my way to my best friend’s house this morning. Mike and I have been hanging out all summer so far. I’ve rode to Mike’s so many times, I think I can do it with my eyes shut. Mike is one of the smartest kids in school and always seems to be helping me with my homework. But now that we are off for the summer, Mike and I have been busy. We spend a lot of time programming little scripts into his Apple IIe computer, bike to the park, watch movies and bother his little sister and brother. Mike loves science and shows me the experiments he is working on. He recently created some crystals in a bottle and I saw a caterpillar’s cocoon in a jar.
As I ride to Mike’s house, the neighborhood is very quiet. It’s not as though we live near a busy intersection or the middle of a big city but no one is outside. I pedal up to Mike’s front stoop and just before I ring the doorbell, I suspect I have arrived just a bit early this morning. I ring the bell anyway.
Mike answers and we head to his garage. It is in Mike’s garage where we do all the experimenting. Sitting on his lab table is a bottle of hydrochloric acid and a magnifying glass. Yesterday we used the magnifying glass to burn up bugs. We grab the acid with some twisted up tinfoil and an empty 2 liter bottle and run to the open prairie across the street from Mike’s house.
“Can you guess what happens when I pour the acid in this 2 liter bottle and let the tinfoil react with the acid while the bottle is sealed tight under pressure?” says Mike. Geez, I have no idea! Where in the world did he even get his hands on hydrochloric acid anyway??? I have always been a bit of a wimp with this sort of thing, so I just shrug my shoulders and shake my head. Mike pours the acid into the bottle, slides the twisted up tinfoil in and he seals the lid with the cap. The acid begins to bubble also most instantly. I stand back, Mike throws the bottle across the empty prairie.
I have just completed my “about” information. I haven’t spent much time proof reading it yet. So I’ll probably wait a day or two and then read it again for further changes.